Incompetence
27 July 2025
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Article published by: Leah Rowe
Date of publication: 27 July 2025
True story.
Here’s an IRC log from #fsf on Libera IRC.
One of GNU Boot’s founders, who I should stress, went out of his way to repeatedly attack Libreboot during the Cold Boot War, is himself a Libreboot user - and this is a common trend with these so-called hard-core FSF types; the people at the top don’t actually practise what they preach, because they know that their software is inferior.
It’s one rule for them, and another for you. Watch:
2025-01-22 13:31:17 neox leah, what you see as attacks is truth (which was to expect). You're overreacting to that, that's your right. I'm continuing to install and use libreboot on boards that are only supported by it (because needing blobs and freedom ladder makes that acceptable to replace a fully proprietary firmware by a more libre one)2025-01-22 14:00:27 leah 13:48 <neox> leah, what you don't understand is that I also use libreboot on hardware that needs non free software
2025-01-22 14:00:46 leah i saw a t400s at your 38c3 talk. what libreboot machines do you use???Context: the Freedom Ladder aims to bring about free software adoption. It is the FSF’s strategy of Free Software advocacy - and it’s basically the same kind of pragmatism that I have in Libreboot, except when I do it, it’s unholy non-GNU - but when they do it, it’s OK, because they are Holy GNU.
I wasn’t going to let this slide, so I martyr’d myself and got banned from the FSF IRC channel:
2025-01-22 16:40:20 leah i just find neox's hypocrisy astounding
2025-01-22 16:40:28 leah he admitted earlier that he uses libreboot on a few machines
2025-01-22 16:40:38 leah yet his project staunchly discourages its use
2025-01-22 16:41:12 leah it's the same hypocrisy i saw at the fsf years ago, when i found that a bunch of staffers when i attended libreplanet, were running debian and ubuntu and so on
2025-01-22 16:41:39 leah yet their fucking website said those distros are non-free. yet those projects do so much for free software and are the basis on which trisquel and so on are based
2025-01-22 16:41:47 leah complete insult and absolute hypocrisy
2025-01-22 16:41:50 leah i don't like hypocrites
2025-01-22 16:42:14 leah freedom ladder my ass
2025-01-22 16:42:42 leah and the whole ryf policy is hypocrisy in the extreme
2025-01-22 16:42:59 leah secondary processor exemption for example. acceptance of non-free ec on all those thinkpads... everything
2025-01-22 16:43:15 leah they make all the same compromises i do. but it's ok for them because they say so
2025-01-22 16:43:27 leah one rule for them
2025-01-22 16:43:43 leah and they heavily re-use libreboot in their project
2025-01-22 16:44:00 leah while criticizing it for doing the exact same fucking thing they are doing
2025-01-22 16:44:04 divya Since I am unaware of the issue, what does neox _do_ recommend as an alternative to libreboot?
2025-01-22 16:44:14 divya Is this the whole GNUBoot thing?
2025-01-22 16:44:18 leah yeah
2025-01-22 16:44:22 divya ahhh
2025-01-22 16:44:23 leah neox is a co-founder of the gnuboot project
2025-01-22 16:44:42 leah gnuboot would be great if it had actually competent, and slightly less dishonest people running it
2025-01-22 16:44:47 neox leah, what are you not understanding?
2025-01-22 16:45:03 leah your hostility to libreboot
2025-01-22 16:45:18 leah you couuld just do your gnuboot and leave libreboot alone
2025-01-22 16:45:19 neox If I have a computer that cannot run GNU Boot and only can run Libreboot (such as a T480) that's not astonishing that I use Libreboot on it, right?
2025-01-22 16:45:31 leah what libreboot machines do you use?
2025-01-22 16:46:04 leah you said earlier that you use libreboot :)
2025-01-22 16:46:10 leah so i'm very curious to know which boards
2025-01-22 16:46:18 neox leah, why do you want to know? That's a t440p
2025-01-22 16:46:54 neox I have for a long time, and while it's not my main computer I don't want to trash it
2025-01-22 16:47:29 leah neox: is that the newer revisions with libre raminit?
2025-01-22 16:47:41 neox leah, probably, yes
2025-01-22 16:47:44 leah because older releases used mrc blob for raminit, but newer versions are all free in the coreboot part
2025-01-22 16:47:58 leah on t440p, the only blob in flash are cpu microcodes and cleaned intel me
2025-01-22 16:48:00 neox I didn't dig into that, didn't have time
2025-01-22 16:48:14 leah ME BUP and ROMP specifically
2025-01-22 16:48:16 <-- craigt (~Icedove@fsf/staff/craigt) has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2025-01-22 16:48:18 neox As I said, that's not my main computer
2025-01-22 16:48:19 leah the first 120KB or so
2025-01-22 16:48:28 leah so, you are confirming your own hypocrisy?
2025-01-22 16:48:32 --> miriamb [miriamb] (purple) (~miriam@fsf/staff/miriamb) has joined #fsf
2025-01-22 16:48:35 leah you tell everyone on your website that libreboot is bad
2025-01-22 16:48:38 neox leah, I don't see any hypocrisy here
2025-01-22 16:48:54 leah you don't think it's hypocritical that you are a libreboot user??
2025-01-22 16:49:03 neox What we feel bad is that people think libreboot is entirely free for every board while it's not
2025-01-22 16:49:04 Kolev I run nonfree UEFIs.
2025-01-22 16:49:11 leah that is your assertion
2025-01-22 16:49:17 leah do yyou have proof that they think that?
2025-01-22 16:49:24 immibis the FSF hasn't been able to make useful software in a long time, and all it has left to remain "in charge" is to try and tear down other groups
2025-01-22 16:49:25 neox But when it comes to my personal choice, I'm free to use nonfree software
2025-01-22 16:49:30 leah perhaps most people do know of libreboot's modern blob reduction policy, and do know about intel me etc
2025-01-22 16:49:32 immibis that's why it has to stay hostile to other groups
2025-01-22 16:49:34 leah and they use it because they accept it
2025-01-22 16:49:43 leah how are you establishing that they don't know?L
2025-01-22 16:49:56 neox leah, we met many people at C3 who were not aware
2025-01-22 16:50:08 neox And my talk was very interesting for them because now, they know
2025-01-22 16:50:12 leah you suggest that people think libreboot is blob-free, and then the implication (though you don't say it directly, and you'll use that classic french tactic of plausible deniability) is that i'm dishonest
2025-01-22 16:50:22 immibis neox is in #fsfsys trying to goad administrators to ban me from IRC btw
2025-01-22 16:50:30 leah despite the fact that i very prominently link the blob policy
2025-01-22 16:50:41 leah it's linked on every page of the website
2025-01-22 16:50:46 leah every page
2025-01-22 16:50:58 neox leah, many people don't read every pages
2025-01-22 16:51:02 leah and the install page links directly to https://libreboot.org/docs/install/ivy_has_common.html
2025-01-22 16:51:05 leah not as a footnote
2025-01-22 16:51:17 leah neox: do you know how blobs are handled in libreboot?
2025-01-22 16:51:28 leah neox: if you download a release rom, which is most users, it doesn't come with blobs
2025-01-22 16:51:32 leah you have to insert them
2025-01-22 16:51:34 neox I'm sorry, leah, but the fact is changing the mind of every people who knew libreboot as fully free is not trivial at all
2025-01-22 16:51:47 neox And this is why I think keeping the name with libre inside it was a bad choice
2025-01-22 16:51:48 leah https://libreboot.org/docs/install/ivy_has_common.html
2025-01-22 16:52:01 leah read it neox
2025-01-22 16:52:08 neox I read it some time ago
2025-01-22 16:52:15 leah if you're installing libreboot on a board that needs blobs, you need to follow that guide
2025-01-22 16:52:24 leah it tells you how to insert required blobs like intel me
2025-01-22 16:52:37 leah and in the first paragraph, it links to:
2025-01-22 16:52:38 leah https://libreboot.org/news/policy.html
2025-01-22 16:52:43 leah and https://libreboot.org/freedom-status.html
2025-01-22 16:52:58 neox leah, most people are blindly following shell instructions without knowing what it means
2025-01-22 16:52:59 leah you allege that people don't know libreboot is no longer a fsf-aligned project
2025-01-22 16:53:03 leah well
2025-01-22 16:53:06 leah let's run with that:
2025-01-22 16:53:20 leah if they didn't know, then the natural assumption would be that they flash the roms as-is
2025-01-22 16:53:23 leah without inserting blobs
2025-01-22 16:53:24 leah yes?
2025-01-22 16:53:27 leah and then their machine bricks
2025-01-22 16:53:41 leah so if what you were saying is true, then a majority of libreboot users would be bricking their machines
2025-01-22 16:53:55 leah yet i rarely see such instances
2025-01-22 16:54:03 neox That might probably happen
2025-01-22 16:54:08 leah also
2025-01-22 16:54:24 Kolev Me, I'd rather have a modern computer than buy *boot machines.
2025-01-22 16:54:24 leah on modern releases, the following prefix is added to such rom images, where blob insertion is requireid:
2025-01-22 16:54:40 leah DO_NOT_FLASH_YET._FIRST,_INJECT_FILES_VIA_INSTRUCTIONS_ON_LIBREBOOT.ORG_
2025-01-22 16:54:47 leah so for example, t480.rom would be:
2025-01-22 16:54:50 leah DO_NOT_FLASH_YET._FIRST,_INJECT_FILES_VIA_INSTRUCTIONS_ON_LIBREBOOT.ORG_t480.rom
2025-01-22 16:55:10 leah when the insertion is done, the script removes that prefix, so that it becomes t480.rom
2025-01-22 16:55:18 leah and in order for that to happen, you are forced to read that guide :)
2025-01-22 16:55:31 leah it's theoretically possible that the user might be just blindly following instructions
2025-01-22 16:55:33 leah but i doubt it
2025-01-22 16:55:37 leah this is firmware
2025-01-22 16:55:49 leah the user is sweating bullets, paranoid that they're gonna brick their £200 t480
2025-01-22 16:56:02 leah so my guess is they're reading every single fucking letter of the page
2025-01-22 16:56:09 leah and i write in big bold letters about the blobs
2025-01-22 16:56:23 leah i do so multiple times, almost to the point of being pedantic, to make sure users know
2025-01-22 16:56:48 leah yet you arrogantly claim that only you have such authority to tell them
2025-01-22 16:56:55 leah and imply that i hide it from them
2025-01-22 16:56:59 leah i don't hide anything from users
2025-01-22 16:57:03 immibis Kolev: so would most of us, but you know, the FAF is strongly opposed to working computers
2025-01-22 16:57:05 leah i tell them the truth
2025-01-22 16:57:15 leah i don't tell them this truth with your ideological dogma
2025-01-22 16:57:20 leah i just state the fact of the matter
2025-01-22 16:57:30 belgin hello
2025-01-22 16:57:32 divya leah, I don't think neox implies that...but I do think he's making some assumptions that he might not.
2025-01-22 16:57:42 leah plus
2025-01-22 16:57:52 leah what neox is saying is deeply insulting to libreboot users
2025-01-22 16:57:58 leah he's basically saying that libreboot users are stupid
2025-01-22 16:58:02 leah that they can't read
2025-01-22 16:58:11 leah i have more faith in my users than that
2025-01-22 16:58:13 leah and more respect
2025-01-22 16:58:20 jacobk Maybe lots of people buy hardware with Libreboot pre-installed
2025-01-22 16:58:27 leah doubtful
2025-01-22 16:58:35 divya leah...no..he's just saying that most people don't have the time to read every detail, and that's quite often true. Maybe they get it pre-installed from Ebay or some other developer.
2025-01-22 16:58:40 divya Why do we have to assume the worst?
2025-01-22 16:58:47 leah i make decent money, but my sales figures are hardly representative of the entire libreboot user base
2025-01-22 16:59:00 leah i analyse my traffic regularly
2025-01-22 16:59:23 leah my my estimation, libreboot gets literally thousands of new installs daily
2025-01-22 16:59:37 leah i sometimes don't even make a fucking sale in a week
2025-01-22 16:59:47 immibis divya: people who don't eeas whether their software is free do not care whether their software is free
2025-01-22 17:00:05 leah and aside from some teenagers on ebay, i'm the only game in town these days
2025-01-22 17:00:07 divya immibis: No, I think leah cares about software freedom.
2025-01-22 17:00:16 divya leah has done some of the most work
2025-01-22 17:00:28 divya we have to stop portraying each other as evil
2025-01-22 17:00:41 leah oh, i will portray neox as evil
2025-01-22 17:00:50 leah the most devious of the lot
2025-01-22 17:00:58 immibis I think Leah thinks a system with 99% free software is better than one with 0%, and neox thinks the opposite.
2025-01-22 17:01:10 leah neox uses libreboot
2025-01-22 17:01:15 leah he confirmed it himself, here, today
2025-01-22 17:01:30 leah he is a hypocrite
2025-01-22 17:01:39 immibis oh. what a hypocrite and a corporate shill.
2025-01-22 17:01:59 leah me thinks neox is just drinking fsf kool aid for his ego
2025-01-22 17:02:02 divya let's please calm down and try to have a civil discussion. this antagonism will lead nowhere.
2025-01-22 17:02:11 leah perhaps seeing a job in it for him in the future
2025-01-22 17:02:25 leah suck stallman's cock long enough and maybe he'll throw a buck your way
2025-01-22 17:03:22 leah i used to see him as an annoyingly pedantic cultist, someone i despise politically but could at least respect as an adversary
2025-01-22 17:03:32 leah as of today, i now see him as a moral coward
2025-01-22 17:03:49 jacobk gnu's page does not seem hypocritical; it doesn't say not to use Libreboot, just that they don't like the name
2025-01-22 17:03:49 leah his words no longer carry weight.
2025-01-22 17:03:57 divya yeah, that's not a way to discuss anything. As much as I respect leah's libreboot and have been dreaming of finally buying from MiniFree after saving money (as I will). But from what I see, this is not how one handles conflicts
2025-01-22 17:04:17 neox leah, wtf
2025-01-22 17:04:31 -- Mode #fsf [+o thomzane] by ChanServ
2025-01-22 17:04:39 leah it's perfectly ok for you to use libreboot
2025-01-22 17:04:48 leah but nobody else eh?
2025-01-22 17:04:49 leah hypocrite
2025-01-22 17:04:55 leah absolute bloody hypocrite
2025-01-22 17:04:57 leah i despite you neox
2025-01-22 17:05:01 leah you've earned my contempt
2025-01-22 17:05:07 -- Mode #fsf [+m] by thomzane
2025-01-22 17:05:12 leah and after your admission today, i will no longer hold back
2025-01-22 17:05:12 -- #fsf: Cannot send to nick/channel
2025-01-22 17:05:48 --> tt12310978324354 [tt1231] (tt1231) (~tt1231@2603:6010:8700:4a81:219f:50d3:618a:a6ee) has joined #fsf
2025-01-22 17:08:22 -- Mode #fsf [+q leah!*@*] by thomzane
2025-01-22 17:08:28 -- Mode #fsf [+q immibis!*@*] by thomzane
2025-01-22 17:08:36 -- Mode #fsf [-m] by thomzane
2025-01-22 17:08:45 -- Mode #fsf [-o thomzane] by ChanServ
2025-01-22 17:10:11 <-- trekkie1701c (~trekkie17@user/trekkie1701c) has quit (Quit: :P)
2025-01-22 17:10:48 --> oaken-source [oaken-source] (Andreas Grapentin) (~oaken-sou@user/oaken-source) has joined #fsf
2025-01-22 17:11:21 thomzane This is not the place to bicker between projects. If you used inappropriate language during this dispute, I gave you a 1 week mute.
2025-01-22 17:11:32 --> JohnMH [JohnMH] (JohnMH) (sid521005@id-521005.hampstead.irccloud.com) has joined #fsf
2025-01-22 17:12:10 --> trekkie1701c [trekkie1701c] (The Trekkie) (~trekkie17@user/trekkie1701c) has joined #fsf
2025-01-22 17:12:46 thomzane If this continues in this channel, further escalation will occur.
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2025-01-22 17:13:45 <-- LainExperiments (~LainExper@user/LainExperiments) has quit (Quit: Client closed)
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2025-01-22 17:15:20 <-- u0_a182 (~u0_a182@fsf/member/GNUmer) has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2025-01-22 17:17:05 -- Mode #fsf [+o thomzane] by ChanServ
2025-01-22 17:17:16 -- Mode #fsf [+b leah!*@*] by thomzaneIn March 2023, the FSF started a hostile fork of Libreboot, where they even attempted to steal the name Libreboot itself, and use it for themselves. I defeated this initial fork - and then they made another, equally hostile fork, this time under the GNU auspices. Spoiler alert: this was defeated too (I won), and now the FSF/GNU is essentially a controlled opposition - my own Canoeboot project, created specifically to compete with and sequester GNU, is that control. I maintain Canoeboot as a parallel fork of Libreboot, which releases in sync with it at all times, mirroring everything Libreboot does perfectly. Therefore Canoeboot is the ideal fork, as Libreboot continues to be well-maintained.
Libreboot is a free software project that goes above and beyond to remove as much proprietary software as possible, giving you as close to a fully free BIOS/UEFI replacement as possible, on as many computers as possible. That is the entire goal of the project.
I used to be one of these FSF people, but I realised a few years later that their overly dogmatic approach to Free Software actually hinders the Free Software movement; they are the enemy of the very movement they claim to represent.
The only difference between modern Libreboot, and old-Libreboot, is that modern Libreboot doesn’t have the RMS stink in it anymore.
Even Canoeboot doesn’t have it; I systematically avoid mentioning GNU or FSF at all, on the Canoeboot website. It even goes so far as to publish its own zero-blob policy, mirroring (in substance) the same policy as the FSF:
https://canoeboot.org/news/policy.html
And Libreboot has its own policy at the same URI:
https://libreboot.org/news/policy.html
Libreboot’s policy is better, because it allows any hardware that coreboot supports, to be supported, and Libreboot minimises the amount of binary blobs as much as possibly - even completely eliminating them, on some boards.
Libreboot is “not free enough”, so a lot of the unfortunate people that were fooled by the FSF dogma wrongly think that Libreboot is a proprietary software project.
Libreboot made peace with the FSF in February 2025, because its leader (Zoë Kooyman) showed me that she actually has real integrity and courage - and a backbone. I respected her word alone, so I ended Libreboot’s conflict with GNU, unilaterally. And GNU Boot is glad of it, because they knew they couldn’t win.
Regardless, I can still make fun of neox and gnutoo whenever I want. They’re still a bunch of incompetent gnuboobs. I say this not as an insult, but as a fact - their project has not had a stable release yet, despite existing for over two years now.
To be clear: none of this is about actual ideology, not really.
I fundamentally agree with all of the FSF’s principles: the four freedoms are absolute! But I cannot promote the FSF, so I don’t link them anymore.
In Canoeboot, I therefore maintain what I called unaligned compliance - it adheres to the FSF’s criteria for software freedom, because I agree with it, but the FSF as an organisation is hostile to me.
Yes, hostile; the peace I currently maintain with them is merely a ceasefire. Neither Canoeboot nor Libreboot shall openly attack them, and they will not attack Libreboot or Canoeboot. In fact, I semi-regularly talk to the GNU Boot people, advising them on things and ocasionally send them patches - and they do the same with me. For example, we report bugs to each other.
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